Deavmi wrote to Sampsa <=-
I use nano only. I also use big text. I just do the Ctrl and Shift and
+ and the Ctrl and - whnever I need it.
Accession wrote to Sampsa <=-
So I have four DASD devices, 0120, 0121, 0130 and 0131.
Every couple of boots, the /dev/dasd name given to 0121 and 0130 is swapped around. So that's totally fucking random behaviour to me.
I've never seen this activity before. Then again, I don't have DASD devices, either. Maybe it's specific to your devices and/or your configuration?
I would say a bit of all three probably, with emphasis on the hobbyist part. I'll try and/or use the best fit for the task at hand. I'm a bit
of a PC gamer as well, so I also have a Win10 machine for Call of Duty, Battlefield 1, The Division, and soon the new Mass Effect that's coming out in spring of 2017.
If companies like Activision, Treyarch, Infinity Ward, Bioware, and whatever else would contribute their games to the Linux world, I
wouldn't have a need for Windows whatsoever. But they don't, so I keep
it around for what I need it for. *shrug*
If that's the case and you go to upgrade, does yum let you know and
possibly give you an option to do a full upgrade to that next
version?
You don't usually upgrade major versions of CentOS or RHEL with yum.
You boot off an install DVD and perform an upgrade that way, as
upgrading using yum can lead to all kinds of problems. This is
pretty standard for rpm based distributions, as far as I know, with
Fedora having special tools to upgrade from one major version to
another. It's not nearly as easy as it is to perform full system
upgrades on Debian/Ubuntu/Arch/etc.
Ah, okay. Seems like kind of a bummer if you were to admin multiple CentOS servers that required a major update. Would the DVD install actually detect the current CentOS system and just upgrade it? Or is it a completely new install?
Sampsa wrote to Deavmi <=-
Deavmi wrote to Sampsa <=-
I use nano only. I also use big text. I just do the Ctrl and Shift and
+ and the Ctrl and - whnever I need it.
My options are basically:
- Quick edit to a small config file on a server? nano
- Some edits to code on a server? emacs
- Edit 10,000 lines of code in 50 files? sshfs + Smultron 6 on my OS X box.
sampsa
You don't usually upgrade major versions of CentOS or RHEL with yum. You boot off an install DVD and perform an upgrade that way, as upgrading using yum can lead to all kinds of problems. This is pretty standard for rpm based distributions, as far as I know, with Fedora having special tools to upgrade from one major version to another.
It's not nearly as easy as it is to perform full system upgrades on Debian/Ubuntu/Arch/etc.
Ah, okay. Seems like kind of a bummer if you were to admin multiple CentOS servers that required a major update. Would the DVD install actually detect the
current CentOS system and just upgrade it? Or is it a completely new install?
Tony wrote to Deavmi <=-
Nano is very useful...but if I have to change some configuraton on the
fly sed and awk are your best friends.
For automation and push all on remote servers combination of git/puppet/ansible and ansible playbook for
comamnd execution in remote are the best to remote server administration...
About distro? My favorite is Debian for server or CentOS if the
business require RHE but always try to suggest Debian.
Home users I don't really many years ago I used FreeBSD than Ubuntu but several years I am very comfortable with Mac.
When you are 'shopping' for a linux distro to run - assuming you aren't just constantly jumping distros - do you pick one that leans towards
just including free software as one of it's goals, or do you go for the convenience of a distro that bundles most if not all the stuff you need?
Do you tend to favor type over the other? And if so, is it out of principal or for more practical reasons.
Compared to what, DEB?
Are you trying to emulate an oldschool green screen monitor? Blecch.. I'e
vim or nano with black background and white text any day. :)
Regards,
Nick
Nano with white text (or like the gray text) and a black background.
---
■ Synchronet ■ Electronic Warfare BBS | telnet://bbs.ewbbs.net
I wanted an honest opinion, not something quoted from a biased website.
I don't know if it's ARM specific, but both of my Raspberry Pi 3's use eth0 with systemd. Granted, when I was using an x86 machine it was
renamed to enp2s6, but it /never/ changed from that. So I'm unsure as to where the "totally f'ing random" is coming from.
Compared to what, DEB?
I think when rpm was first introduced, it lacked any sort of
dependency management. apt came before yum.
So, perhaps it may be accurate to say dpkg is better than rpm, but I
think both suck on their own, which is why we have apt and yum.
Nano is very useful...but if I have to change some configuraton on the fly sed and awk are your best friends.
And sometimes grep and friends.
I wanted an honest opinion, not something quoted from a biased
website.
While it is a quote, it's factual.
Systemd is great for desktops. Not surprising, as it's modeled after launchd from Mac OS.
However, it over-complicates most anything on the server side, which
is where the vast majority of Linux installs are.
Case in point: Journald. Did you know, there's no way to turn this
off? Most say,"Who cares! Turn the journal down to 512MB (The
minimum) and just send logs wherever you want!"
True, I could do that. However, when you're deploying 6-8000 machines across many DC's, 512MB per instance adds up. And, it costs money.
Can I disable it? Nope.
Systemd handles network interface management. What if you don't want anything managing your network, other than an enforced config? Can I disabled this? Nope. Core component.
Now, getting into DE's: Can you install Gnome3 without systemd?
Nope. Hard requirement. Now, it's said that one can write their own implementations of logind, but what is even the point of logind? Who cares since most machines are either: A) Headless (A server, which has
no seats) B) Single-user machines?
Case in point: Journald. Did you know, there's no way to turn this off? Most say,"Who cares! Turn the journal down to 512MB (The minimum) and just send logs wherever you want!"
Systemd handles network interface management. What if you don't want anything managing your network, other than an enforced config? Can I disabled this? Nope. Core component.
Systemd handles seat management. Who cares about seat management? My headless machines have no seats. Can I disabled this? Nope. It uses about 100MB of RAM too. Again, wasted money.
Now, getting into DE's: Can you install Gnome3 without systemd? Nope.
Hard requirement. Now, it's said that one can write their own implementations of logind, but what is even the point of logind? Who cares since most machines are either:
A) Headless (A server, which has no seats)
B) Single-user machines?
Again, wasted resources, and needless interlocking of dependencies.
I don't know if it's ARM specific, but both of my Raspberry Pi 3's use eth0 with systemd. Granted, when I was using an x86 machine it was renamed to enp2s6, but it /never/ changed from that. So I'm unsure as to where the "totally f'ing random" is coming from.
That's a distro thing with the Pi. Most pi distros lock the interface names.
As for random device naming, yes, systemd is prone to randomly renaming block devices, because it presumes everyone relies on UUIDs for block devices.
For network devices, yep: That device name will not change, until you move it. Then it will.
Deavmi wrote to Sampsa <=-
I use nano only. I also use big text. I just do the Ctrl and Shift and
+ and the Ctrl and - whnever I need it.
My options are basically:
- Quick edit to a small config file on a server? nano
- Some edits to code on a server? emacs
- Edit 10,000 lines of code in 50 files? sshfs + Smultron 6 on my OS X box.
sampsa
... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
--- MultiMail/Darwin v0.49
Synchronet B4BBS = London, England - b4bbs.sampsa.com (port 23/tcp)
When you are 'shopping' for a linux distro to run - assuming you aren't just constantly jumping distros - do you pick one that leans towards just including free software as one of it's goals, or do you go for the convenience of a distro that bundles most if not all the stuff you need?
Do you tend to favor type over the other? And if so, is it out of principal or for more practical reasons.
I try to find a balancing act. I would prefer to use all-libre software, but alas, my GPU will almost never be supported initially with a libre driver. Same with my wifi card.
So, I'd prefer a piece of libre software, but in the end, I need to get work done. Which is why I stick with Ubuntu server, and go from there.
Corey, KC2UGV
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A31 (Raspberry Pi)
* Origin: Solar Pi BBS
Compared to what, DEB?
I think when rpm was first introduced, it lacked any sort of dependency management. apt came before yum.
So, perhaps it may be accurate to say dpkg is better than rpm, but I think both suck on their own, which is why we have apt and yum.
Corey, KC2UGV
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A31 (Raspberry Pi)
* Origin: Solar Pi BBS
Are you trying to emulate an oldschool green screen monitor? Blecch.. I'e
vim or nano with black background and white text any day. :)
Regards,
Nick
Nano with white text (or like the gray text) and a black background.
---
Synchronet Electronic Warfare BBS | telnet://bbs.ewbbs.net
lol, noobs. Solarized light, ftw :P
(I kid, I kid! Everyone has their own preferences)
Corey, KC2UGV
--- Mystic BBS v1.12 A31 (Raspberry Pi)
* Origin: Solar Pi BBS
I'm guessing on a much larger scale? I have run quite a few servers here from home as well as outside of home, and systemd has done everything I need it to so far.
Did you ever want to turn syslog off? I mean, it's the logging facility for systemd. Why would you want to turn it off? And rather than writing
a script or
using things like grep/awk/sed to pull things from syslog, you can do
much easier with journalctl options. Want to look for something that happened 10 times in the last hour? There's an option for that. :)
What did you use to manage your network before systemd? And could you disable it without losing your network connectivity?
You may be diving a little deeper with the above. Gnome3 and most other DE's aren't usually used on servers. If they are, there's many more
other things that should be worried about than logind or systemd. :)
distibutions went the systemd route. That and the fact that now they (distro specific devs) can all work together in unison to accomplish the same tasks, rather than have to change everything that comes from
upstream for specific distributions.
Heck it looks like even RedHat/CentOS are using it now since version 7 (which is surprising).
Did you ever want to turn syslog off? I mean, it's the logging
facility for systemd. Why would you want to turn it off? And
rather than writing a script or
No, why would I turn syslog off? It's a robust logging facility, that
is time tested, and not prone to corruption of logs, unlike journald.
I would like to be able to disable journald, so I'm not wasting
resources on it, since syslog facilities are what get used in mass deployments.
using things like grep/awk/sed to pull things from syslog, you
can do much easier with journalctl options. Want to look for
something that happened 10 times in the last hour? There's an
option for that. :)
There's nothing wrong with grep/awk/sed to pull things from syslog.
They are all capable of parallel processing the log.
Regardless, don't use that for much other than quick reports, on the
spot. On large scale deployments, syslog ships the logs to a ACID-compliant db backend. Why waste resources on journald, whose db
is not ACID compliant?
What did you use to manage your network before systemd? And could
you disable it without losing your network connectivity?
You don't manage a networking interface. It gets brought up at boot,
and doesn't change.
We're not talking about laptops here. We're talking about servers,
which generally stay on, all the time.
If by some change the connection drops, it has a static assignment,
and just starts taking traffic again. No need for "interface
management" on servers.
How does systemd make it any easier for devs? Syslog, ssh, inits are
all application agnostic.
There's nothing to change upstream, anymore than there was prior to systemd.
As for RHEL/Centos deploying systemd, of course they are: RH is the
group that wrote it, and is pushing it. They are looking to mold
Linux into what makes money for them, not to be the best OS.
I think when rpm was first introduced, it lacked any sort of dependency management. apt came before yum.
So, perhaps it may be accurate to say dpkg is better than rpm, but I think both suck on their own, which is why we have apt and yum.
So did you have to install the dependancies for a specific program
manually then?
Poindexter Fortran wrote to Tony <=-
it for one node before updating the mailer. I'd like to be able to automate editing a text file and SED seems the perfect tool for that.
Hello kc2ugv,
On 08 Dec 16 07:18, kc2ugv wrote to Accession:
Did you ever want to turn syslog off? I mean, it's the logging
facility for systemd. Why would you want to turn it off? And
rather than writing a script or
No, why would I turn syslog off? It's a robust logging facility, that is time tested, and not prone to corruption of logs, unlike journald.
That's basically what it seems like you're saying you want to do. When using systemd, journald is the system service for logging in general. So saying you'd
like to shut it off is basically saying one of two things: 1) you want to turn
off/disable your system logging service, or 2) you don't want to use systemd in
general (which is the only option I could actually see agreeing with).
I would like to be able to disable journald, so I'm not wasting resources on it, since syslog facilities are what get used in mass deployments.
I'm fairly certain you cannot use systemd without journald. So if you want to disable it, you can't use systemd. This can still be done if you're willing to
take the right steps to do so.
using things like grep/awk/sed to pull things from syslog, you
can do much easier with journalctl options. Want to look for
something that happened 10 times in the last hour? There's an
option for that. :)
There's nothing wrong with grep/awk/sed to pull things from syslog.
They are all capable of parallel processing the log.
I didn't say there was anything wrong with them. I said journalctl makes things
easier by giving command line options to do the same exact thing.
Regardless, don't use that for much other than quick reports, on the spot. On large scale deployments, syslog ships the logs to a ACID-compliant db backend. Why waste resources on journald, whose db
is not ACID compliant?
Maybe it has a compliance with something else that can be used instead? After all, when upgrading one system on a large scale deployment, usually you're doing a lot more than just that one. Obviously, journald is going to have one looking for a new way to gather everything together in a new form of db.
You seem to keep going back to original programs you've been used to using. It
doesn't seem like the move to systemd is going to cater to what everyone has been used to for however long. I think the major issues people against systemd
are having is that they've done something a certain way for so long and now they're somewhat being forced to learn something different.. and I'm sure it's
a hell of a lot of work upgrading large scale deployments - with or without systemd. But, one can look at the positive side of things too (ie: job security).
What did you use to manage your network before systemd? And could
you disable it without losing your network connectivity?
You don't manage a networking interface. It gets brought up at boot, and doesn't change.
Exactly. Then why did you bring it up in the first place?
We're not talking about laptops here. We're talking about servers, which generally stay on, all the time.
Still need networking to be brought up during that first boot, though, right?
If by some change the connection drops, it has a static assignment,
and just starts taking traffic again. No need for "interface management" on servers.
Petition to have it removed with your specific company, then? Heck, I don't know. This part of the discussion seems kind of redundant.
How does systemd make it any easier for devs? Syslog, ssh, inits are all application agnostic.
How about the applications themselves, and not the system dependant stuff? Applications can now ship with simple .service files that will work on every distribution out there using systemd, straight from upstream. I seem to recall
distros using sysvinit even differing on the location/placement of init scripts, rather than joining together to make them work across many platforms?
There's nothing to change upstream, anymore than there was prior to systemd.
It's not about changing, it's about providing a simple service file, and no matter what distro it goes to, will work without having to modify it to suit said distro.
As for RHEL/Centos deploying systemd, of course they are: RH is the group that wrote it, and is pushing it. They are looking to mold
Linux into what makes money for them, not to be the best OS.
What distros still _don't_ use systemd? I'm assuming Slackware and Gentoo right
off the bat, but any others?
Regards,
Nick
... " . ."
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20160827
* Origin: thePharcyde_ distribution system (Wisconsin) (723:1/1)
Synchronet thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin)
On 2016-12-08 04:01 PM, Accession wrote:https://devuan.org/
Hello kc2ugv,Devuan, something like that.
On 08 Dec 16 07:18, kc2ugv wrote to Accession:
thatDid you ever want to turn syslog off? I mean, it's the logging
facility for systemd. Why would you want to turn it off? And
rather than writing a script or
No, why would I turn syslog off? It's a robust logging facility,
is time tested, and not prone to corruption of logs, unlikejournald.
That's basically what it seems like you're saying you want to do. When
using
systemd, journald is the system service for logging in general. So
saying you'd
like to shut it off is basically saying one of two things: 1) you want
to turn
off/disable your system logging service, or 2) you don't want to use
systemd in
general (which is the only option I could actually see agreeing with).
I would like to be able to disable journald, so I'm not wasting
resources on it, since syslog facilities are what get used in mass
deployments.
I'm fairly certain you cannot use systemd without journald. So if you
want to
disable it, you can't use systemd. This can still be done if you're
willing to
take the right steps to do so.
using things like grep/awk/sed to pull things from syslog, you
can do much easier with journalctl options. Want to look for
something that happened 10 times in the last hour? There's an
option for that. :)
There's nothing wrong with grep/awk/sed to pull things from syslog.
They are all capable of parallel processing the log.
I didn't say there was anything wrong with them. I said journalctl
makes things
easier by giving command line options to do the same exact thing.
Regardless, don't use that for much other than quick reports, on thewhose db
spot. On large scale deployments, syslog ships the logs to a
ACID-compliant db backend. Why waste resources on journald,
is not ACID compliant?
Maybe it has a compliance with something else that can be used
instead? After
all, when upgrading one system on a large scale deployment, usually
you're
doing a lot more than just that one. Obviously, journald is going to
have one
looking for a new way to gather everything together in a new form of db.
You seem to keep going back to original programs you've been used to
using. It
doesn't seem like the move to systemd is going to cater to what
everyone has
been used to for however long. I think the major issues people against
systemd
are having is that they've done something a certain way for so long
and now
they're somewhat being forced to learn something different.. and I'm
sure it's
a hell of a lot of work upgrading large scale deployments - with or
without
systemd. But, one can look at the positive side of things too (ie: job
security).
boot,What did you use to manage your network before systemd? And could
you disable it without losing your network connectivity?
You don't manage a networking interface. It gets brought up at
and doesn't change.
Exactly. Then why did you bring it up in the first place?
We're not talking about laptops here. We're talking about servers,
which generally stay on, all the time.
Still need networking to be brought up during that first boot, though,
right?
If by some change the connection drops, it has a static assignment,
and just starts taking traffic again. No need for "interface
management" on servers.
Petition to have it removed with your specific company, then? Heck, I
don't
know. This part of the discussion seems kind of redundant.
How does systemd make it any easier for devs? Syslog, ssh, initsare
all application agnostic.
How about the applications themselves, and not the system dependant
stuff?
Applications can now ship with simple .service files that will work on
every
distribution out there using systemd, straight from upstream. I seem
to recall
distros using sysvinit even differing on the location/placement of init
scripts, rather than joining together to make them work across many
platforms?
There's nothing to change upstream, anymore than there was prior to
systemd.
It's not about changing, it's about providing a simple service file,
and no
matter what distro it goes to, will work without having to modify it
to suit
said distro.
As for RHEL/Centos deploying systemd, of course they are: RH is the
group that wrote it, and is pushing it. They are looking to mold
Linux into what makes money for them, not to be the best OS.
What distros still _don't_ use systemd? I'm assuming Slackware and
Gentoo right
off the bat, but any others?
Regards,
Nick
... " . ."
--- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20160827
* Origin: thePharcyde_ distribution system (Wisconsin) (723:1/1)
Synchronet thePharcyde_ telnet://bbs.pharcyde.org (Wisconsin)
At work, when *nix is required, they are strictly CEntOS. There are probably 200 *nix servers. At my day job I support ~20K M$
workstations and have limited involvment in server management. I have a few M$ and *nix servers helping me support the workstations, but the infrastructure consists of about 2K M$ server systems.
Sounds like a fun day at the office. I take it they tend to leave those CentOS systems alone for the most part then (except possibly some major security updates)?
Regards,
Nick
Ok, while I'm not sure I picked the best subject title for this, I figured I'd
ask just to get an idea.
Just curious how others approach it. And hopefully can start a holy war ;-)
On 11/30/2016 12:42 AM, Chris wrote:I have found my new home in Ubuntu MATE. It has the needed packages and
Ok, while I'm not sure I picked the best subject title for this, I
figured I'd
ask just to get an idea.
Just curious how others approach it. And hopefully can start a holy
war ;-)
I never could of any reason to use linux for a long time. (Tried once,
NIC driver didnt work, gave up).
Eventually I moved SBBS to ubuntu before they got a Windows 8 interface.
:P I chose ubuntu at the time because that was the preferred distro of
the local user group before they disbanded.
When ubuntu went windows 8, I went with Mint & Cinnamon.
I've messed around with FreeBSD also and don't really have a problem
with that.
I always wanted to make some desklets or what not for SBBS, but I never
get motivated to do any of that.
Most of the linux desktop enviroments for me feel pretty Windows 3.1 typically, so I could probably use any of them and not really care. :)
-Mindless Automaton
---
Synchronet Eldritch Clockwork BBS - eldritch.darktech.org
On 11/30/2016 12:42 AM, Chris wrote:Also, Ubuntu seems to love giving errors on my hardware. Always.
Ok, while I'm not sure I picked the best subject title for this, I
figured I'd
ask just to get an idea.
Just curious how others approach it. And hopefully can start a holy
war ;-)
I never could of any reason to use linux for a long time. (Tried once,
NIC driver didnt work, gave up).
Eventually I moved SBBS to ubuntu before they got a Windows 8 interface.
:P I chose ubuntu at the time because that was the preferred distro of
the local user group before they disbanded.
When ubuntu went windows 8, I went with Mint & Cinnamon.
I've messed around with FreeBSD also and don't really have a problem
with that.
I always wanted to make some desklets or what not for SBBS, but I never
get motivated to do any of that.
Most of the linux desktop enviroments for me feel pretty Windows 3.1 typically, so I could probably use any of them and not really care. :)
-Mindless Automaton
---
Synchronet Eldritch Clockwork BBS - eldritch.darktech.org
On 2016-12-16 04:10 PM, Mindless Automaton wrote:My hardware being the Toshiba laptop in this case.
On 11/30/2016 12:42 AM, Chris wrote:Also, Ubuntu seems to love giving errors on my hardware. Always.
Ok, while I'm not sure I picked the best subject title for this, I
figured I'd
ask just to get an idea.
Just curious how others approach it. And hopefully can start a holy
war ;-)
I never could of any reason to use linux for a long time. (Tried once,
NIC driver didnt work, gave up).
Eventually I moved SBBS to ubuntu before they got a Windows 8 interface.
:P I chose ubuntu at the time because that was the preferred distro of
the local user group before they disbanded.
When ubuntu went windows 8, I went with Mint & Cinnamon.
I've messed around with FreeBSD also and don't really have a problem
with that.
I always wanted to make some desklets or what not for SBBS, but I never
get motivated to do any of that.
Most of the linux desktop enviroments for me feel pretty Windows 3.1
typically, so I could probably use any of them and not really care. :)
-Mindless Automaton
---
Synchronet Eldritch Clockwork BBS - eldritch.darktech.org
| Sysop: | Shaun Ewing |
|---|---|
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